Xp and/or level rate differences

Barin999

Journeyman
I came across a game where certain classes leveled up faster then others. (fighter vs mage for example)

This got me thinking towards crafting and the different classes.
Underlining that we don't know much about Pantheon's crafters and anything said here is purely to openly discuss topics relating to crafting and Pantheon.

As many know, depending on the main profession, crafters will be making a lot of lower value items or less but with an increased value.
A provisioner vs a jeweler for example. Could be seen in such a scenario.
In this case it can make sense to lower the xp gained per craft/end product in comparison to other craftingclasses that produce less or less often.
Think of it as three crafters running the marathon; each will have the same amount of miles in front of them. The difference would be that one takes babysteps and gets encouraged with each little step (aka gain of some sort; xp or coin for example). Other craftingclasses might run with an ordinary stride and they get their benefits at different times but still quite frequent. And lastly you have the crafting class that takes big leapes in their marathon. The leapes take a lot of time and effort with less encouragment or direct feedback from the game.

Still craftingclass will ALL have their major milestones at X point and ALL craftingclasses will have gathered or invested X-amount of time and resources to reach the end of their marathon.

This leans towards another take on creating different playstyles or desires and expectations for players depending on the class they have chosen.
Another example of how crafters experience can differ and align with the chosen playstyle;
A crafter can find a lot of new recipes for: be that end product recipes, or subcomponents.
In comparson, a different crafting class can also gather recipes but much more spaced out in time (and geographically?).

What you get here is someone who likes to grind might fit better with the first option with a lot of small varieties.. whereas players that enjoy longer pathways during gaming, might enjoy being that other class.

In detail that might turn out like this: a provisioner learns that they find a lot of resources by scavanging in mob infested areas and they'll find recipes or pieces thereof every so often amongst the rubble. The result is that they go out a lot and likely to the same location to get their resources cheap and loads of them.
A jeweler might not find many resources out there. They might learn that they need to look for veigns in abandoned caves or distant rockformations to mine their resources and when it comes to recipes they learn that they'll have to investigate little townships to find the occasional npc that helps them along with new recipes or pieces thereof.
Here the main difference is that the jeweler does not require that mob infested cave as much as the provisioner does. And it provides a different gamestyle experience.

Another difference (and I'll stop here for now) would be that one crafter needs to work on factions in crafting related societies to access resources or recipes, whereas other crafters might not and would find their progression more out in the world itself. Here the difference lies in; playing within city or settlements takes up more time with one class vs playing mostly outside settlements and just returning to town every so often for logistics.

Interesting idea? Not needed, let's stay all equal? Same amount of subcomponents, recipes and methods to earn them for all? What say you?
 
Last edited:

Nephele

Administrator
Staff member
The last game I saw that did something like this was a text-based MUD. They had all the basic D&D style classes - cleric, rogue, warrior, etc - and then they also had a bunch of other more exotic classes, like sorceror, warlock, pirate, and so on. The way they justified it was that the more exotic classes leveled more slowly.

Of course, 99% of people played the exotic classes. The only time you found someone playing a basic class was if they were brand new, or if they were roleplaying. I think that probably says something about the effectiveness of using experience gain as an incentive or disincentive.
 

Pyde

Novice
EQ2 did this sort of thing in the beginning with their crafters. Provisioner was the big one that got effected by the exp gains per craft but the funny part was their crafts took just as long as the others. They just produced more end result product. As in.... When a provisioner crafted a drink he/she was using basic store bought and harvested mats to make an end result product. Where an armorer would have to make 3-4 pre-requisite items in order to create one breastplate.

So in the end both are having to create the same amount of crafted items in order to level but the Provisioner is creating more end result products over the Armorer.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
EQ2 did this sort of thing in the beginning with their crafters. Provisioner was the big one that got effected by the exp gains per craft but the funny part was their crafts took just as long as the others. They just produced more end result product. As in.... When a provisioner crafted a drink he/she was using basic store bought and harvested mats to make an end result product. Where an armorer would have to make 3-4 pre-requisite items in order to create one breastplate.

So in the end both are having to create the same amount of crafted items in order to level but the Provisioner is creating more end result products over the Armorer.
That is a good example of a class difference indeed.
Would you experience it as a difference in playstyle amongst craftingclasses?
Is it different enough?
 

Barin999

Journeyman
The last game I saw that did something like this was a text-based MUD. They had all the basic D&D style classes - cleric, rogue, warrior, etc - and then they also had a bunch of other more exotic classes, like sorceror, warlock, pirate, and so on. The way they justified it was that the more exotic classes leveled more slowly.

Of course, 99% of people played the exotic classes. The only time you found someone playing a basic class was if they were brand new, or if they were roleplaying. I think that probably says something about the effectiveness of using experience gain as an incentive or disincentive.
That seems about right when considering adventuring classes. As it comes down to; let's kill a mob this way or the other.

The difference here would be;
You can't make bread with blacksmith. Especially in a game where the crafters are aimed to be a big part of between player reliability, all crafting classes would be required.
With the chosen class comes certain products one would offer the community (bread or swords). The difference in xp progression would be felt by the crafter, but in the end... EVERY class would be required at highest level. As the community would seek them out. If you're that sole blacksmith who went through hours and hours of "slow" progression in comparison to the hundred fast leveling provisioners...you WILL earn your buck.
Many blacksmiths and few provisioners? Well that fast progressing provisioner will earn their buck amongst the sea of blacksmiths then. This solution has resolved itself based on economic principles.

This again is one to think of in long term. You'd say, well in the end it doesn't matter because you have a lot of every class in a couple of years. That might be the case...if the game stops developing crafting content or straigthens out the xp progression. If not, well you'll still have those rare core blacksmiths that provide end players with something most other crafters can not. Let's not forget the recent information announced by the developers themselves, where not every blacksmith will be able to offer the same thing..

Blacksmith being just an example here ofc.

In short term and long term, this progression rate difference might give players a different experience depending on their choice. In fact, I might be so bold to say, that it will without a doubt give a difference in gaming experience. Not every crafting class will be enjoyed by all, it will rely heavely on what the player wants out of the game and how much their are willing to invest.
Is it a bad thing that players that don't have much time, can not reach max content in that short playtime with EVERY craftingclass? It could actually be one of those things, that makes Pantheon stands out. Similar to why a gnome is not allowed to be a tank in Pantheon.

I find that a strong character of the developers to be so bold to make hard restrictions in their class designs during development. So why not with crafters?

It's quite impossible to design a game where a race can't be a certain tradeskill. But this progression rate difference might just be the key to designing a difference (similar to the adv class restriction design).
 
Last edited:

Pyde

Novice
That is a good example of a class difference indeed.
Would you experience it as a difference in playstyle amongst craftingclasses?
Is it different enough?
Barin.... This wasn't a huge difference in play style in EQ2. The only real difference were the ingredients used to create items. Other than that all crafting classes where about the same in regards to gameplay.

Your questions got me thinking though...... It would have been cool to differentiate classes much more as far as their leveling / play style but it would have been much more work for the dev's to do.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Barin.... This wasn't a huge difference in play style in EQ2. The only real difference were the ingredients used to create items. Other than that all crafting classes where about the same in regards to gameplay.
I see what you mean there. Let me elaborate a bit more on that.
In eq2 you have places where in one glance you can see all the different kinds of harvesting nodes in the world. So no matter what craftingclass you were, you could harvest all kinds in the same area.
So the spaciation of harvesting nodes or salvageable resources, is a major difference. Especially in a world where space and time is meant to mean something.
There was only one style of minigame for all styles of crafters and every harvesting node had somewhat the same rare of harvesting succes (in the end being a chance to get 13/try). In that aspect, nothing was influencing playstyle.

If a leatherworker needs dungeons/forests or humanoid habitation to find their resources, but a jeweler needs caves and mountainsides. They would not find all kinds of resources within that area. This on its own could have a drastic impact on between player reliability and connectivity in the community.
The jeweler could not be required to fight, they'd just have to be willing to travel fast and secretive. While the leatherworker is more leaning towards combat related retrieval of resources (either from the mob directly or salvaged from barrels and chests). A provisioner might need other more open areas and need to compete with the elements more for example.

So far that would mean the dev's only need to apply the map and resource dispersion they already stated they aim to do.
As a primary crafter player myself, I hope they will be mindfull when they aim to make Pantheon different. Not only for adventurers but also for crafters.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Your questions got me thinking though...... It would have been cool to differentiate classes much more as far as their leveling / play style but it would have been much more work for the dev's to do.
Nice to have people thinking about crafting in Pantheon. Hop right in, I'd say.

It would be something imense to have different crafters linked to different playstyles.
Can you imagine crafting with one character, that gives you a drastic difference then your friend who plays another crafter?
Don't forget, one does not exclude the other. Meaning; players of different craft can still group up and experience an area simultaniously.

Think about how you'd find provisioners and alchemists mostly within city walls, playing the markets and selling a lot of products. Just outside the main city, in smaller settlements you'd find woodworkers and fletchers working to gather wood, leather and sorts. While out in the open world you'd come across blacksmiths and stonemasons scouring the lands for veigns of ore or abandoned caves.
All are crafters, how they spend their time and how much of if varies drastically. This on its own if you want, can offer a lot of potential when you think about quests and content opportunities. These last can spread out and differ so much that you can indeed recognise a different playstyle with each chosen craft.
Think about how different combatclasses need to do different things to gain abilities or gain new things (spells, whatnot). And put this concept on crafting classes. You'd have crafters within citywalls, building factions, finding secret societies, playing the market and black market. While just outside the citywalls you have an entirely different questlines running (construction, repair, trade caravans, traveling merchants). And lastly hidden chests, holy grounds and elemental resistances of nature to conquer by those crafters far abroad.

If you combine this suggestion with a combat class. You'd come up with two summoners, one a blacksmith and one an alchemist. And they both have a totally different crafting experience, one that they might suit their preferred playstyle. Now that sounds massive to me. The one summoner goes abroad for long periods of time while the other consumed content more closeby. And don't forget, Pantheon will be heavily focussing on groupcontent more then solo content. That would apply to crafting as well (I hope).

They will need to write questlines and content opportunities for crafters and adventurers anyway, why not aim for the long run and make that difference? Again the xp rate and level rate can be tied together with all the above mentioned suggestions.
 
Last edited:

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
Interesting topic @Barin999

I think one of the issues here is the difference between the discovery portion of crafting and the mastery portion of crafting. In virtually all MMOs I have played it has been that you practice low level recipes in order to level up and become eligible to discover higher level recipes usually with higher level ingredients and higher item level results. This is basically a model where all progression is vertical.

I am much more in favor of a system where all the recipes are available at crafting level 1 or rather there are no crafting levels. Rather than a crafting class you have recipes and techniques that you can discover and learn. Once you know them you need to practice, a lot, to master them. In addition to your recipes and techniques you also have material lore knowledge that can only be gained by working with them. Some crafts like alchemy and provisioning the lore categories might be broad and in blacksmithing each metal is its own lore.

Your combined recipe mastery, material lore mastery and your processing technique master will effect your chance for what quality tier of results you get and the combination of mandatory materials, optional materials, and processing techniques are what dictate the properties of the maximum quality result and consequently the item level.

There can be added modifiers from things like your crafting rank, novice, apprentice, journeyman, master, grandmaster and legendary craftmaster or tool and crafting station bonuses to results or chances for higher quality results but primarily its your mastery.

To balance out the crafts that are focused on consumables vs the crafts that make a few specialized items I would have the recipes themselves take roughly the same amount of time to do but the consumable crafts would create stacks of items rather than a single one. The second stage would be that most of the crafting quest/writs would require the same number of raw materials and crafting time to fulfill but the quantities would be relative to the crafts output rate.

Lets face it unless VR flips on the item decay mechanic all crafting classes will be feeding most of their practice items to NPCs either as vendor trash or as turn-ins for crafting quests. Even if VR implements my preferred balance of time spent crafting vs time spent harvesting there still will be never enough demand for items that are worse than dropped items.

So long story short I would modify the Inputs and outputs such that one crafting writ takes the same amount of time and resources for all crafting disciplines and just understand that consumables will just move faster than permanent warn items when crafting for players.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
@Trasak Mastery by repetition and by increasing difficulty is indeed something we both favour.
Designing separate lore for crafts is quite similar to what I'm trying to say with this initial post. It can provide different players with a different experience of being a specific crafter in the game.
The world of Terminus would shake heavily and the playerbase as wel, when the dev's would design races in such a fashion, that not every race can become master in specific craft or gain unique abilities or techniques. (The last one, I still see doable though.) It would really push players together in such a way that you'd have a 'hate or love' attitude for the design. I doubt they'd risk such an approach.

So to come back to your reply, all races will be able to master any chosen craft (not more then 1 per character ofc). And there is still room for the obvious scenarios such as your mentioned modifiers.
Where I see the potential in difference is where each craftingclass is being lead towards... if you catch my drift. The lore and content can be written in such a way that you'd have different crafters going out in different direction in the world and spending their time considerably different.

There is merit in the suggestion relating to how long the craftingprocess takes, as we've discussed in other threads.

What makes this spaciation (using this word in the broad sense of the meaning) so valueable or different?

It's that each player can choose craftingclass at the start. Two players choose two different classes and start their initiation around the same hometown (possibly). But soon after, the classes/players might become separated as their personal class content rolls out in different pathways. And already the rate that they level or otherwise advance/improve can start to be felt and implemented by the devs. The two players will end up differently in two hours of gametime for example. And even more so as they continue investing more time in their specific trade.

In the long run, the two players will be able to craft items for the same level, but they might not get to that point in the same period. What can happen along the way is what I tried to exemplify in the earlier posts.
When they meet each other after 10 gaming hours focussed on crafting, they both can have such a different story to tell. One might have travelled east. While the other might have travelled by portals or caravan or not much at all, but he might have gotten an indept look in the secret world of crafter societies within certain major cities. And they might not have seen those parts of the world the other has. The first one received few questupdates or quest continuation, but each update gave them considerable reward. While the second one might have gotten a lot of quests and got lesser but more rewards. This last bit can be translated as: player with a lot of gametime or otherwise devoted players can spend a lot of time with 1 quest. While another player with less time might be enjoying the other crafter more, since they get to finish stuff faster or more frequently.

Because there might be such a inequality for level rate, by design, not every player might be up for each class. And playstyle and amount of available time can be a true factor in choosing your crafting class. And certainly it will influence the value of classes in the community. (Still keeping in mind, that Pantheon will be a much slower paced and more demanding game then most mmo's when it comes to leveling or advancing in your class.)

I'm not really going into the debate on should there be item decay, thats food for our earlier threads. But I hear ye.
When you talk about item or resource requirement, I'd add to that with; sure that helps as well, does it really feel different as such for the player...I'm not that certain. But if the time it requires to harvest or otherwise meet those requirements, then you'd have your different feel to the class. It might be more subtle, but think how it would feel if you'd play for months.
 
Top