Warrior banners

Barin999

Journeyman
I've posted this on general forums as wel.
But, I wanted to post it here, because I hope to see some well thought replies here or build on suggestions.

Would you like to see the Warriors' banners be player made or bought via npc's, as a possibility in the game?
Some mmo's don't allow you to use certain abilities if you don't have the proper items equipped. (main hand weapon, ammo, ranged weapon, etc.)

Perhaps the ability one gives you a standard banner quality. But purchased from npc or player made could have better stats or effects to them?
Then again, will a ranger be able to shoot without having arrows equipped?
I know that they are abilities and therefore they should be able to use those without any item requirements.

So why not have these banners bought or made. Similar to having throwing stars or what have you on your bags.
It would be an extra recipe alley for woodworkers and tailors.

Personally, I think. It would allow for a real dept feel for those abilities and it could provide an actual ("new"?) experience to that class.
I don't see it as being much different.

(ingame) Penny for your thoughts...
 

Nephele

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting idea. I'd support this but only if there were similar crafted ability booster items for all other classes as well. Otherwise, warrior players would view it as a "tax" on them, rather than a feature.
 
I see your suggestion, @Barin999 , as something exciting. If I enjoy using the ability and am proud of its effects, I think procuring an additional resource to operate it at a higher level to help my group as a rewarding process.

I agree you @Nephele , too, that the activity would have to be distributed somewhat evenly among the classes. Otherwise I believe certain groups feel unfairly treated.

Though, I must admit, I am quickly worried about the consequences of other players developing the expectation that I always have them ready to go. I would want to gather the additional resources to help my team, not to appease the player base. Though, I assume I have this fear due to WoW's ephemeral and practically anonymous groups in which players have no social contract with one another to be kind. Yes, this is likely why ahah.

I would prefer collecting most resources from another player than a vendor, I see it as an excellent opportunity for player interaction. I would enjoy friending someone with the note of arrow supplier.

Possibly those kind of always necessary resources could serve as a foundation for the crafting economy? Players will always need those resources, so they can serve the foundation for something.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Interesting idea. I'd support this but only if there were similar crafted ability booster items for all other classes as well. Otherwise, warrior players would view it as a "tax" on them, rather than a feature.
Ok I hear you. @Nephele
Allow me to return this..
Rogues have poisons as added atribute, rangers have arrows (and possibly) poisons as attribute.
They can do damage without, it's just an extra.
Monks might or could have bandages as something specific to their class.
Petclasses can have all sorts of additions, items that they could equip on their pet (pet window) such as armor, enchantments, boosts, runes, whip, special foods.
It's been done in several other games, even as main feature.
Mages and priests could use totems as extra.
Would you consider that taxations or actually more indept connection with your pet and your class as a whole?
Again, not every class has to be the same. It's just part of the class. Part of the role you are willing to take in this game. A new game and newly invented classes, mind you.

Any mage or priest can cast a spell, but they do it much better with a staff in their hands or a tome. Is that much different then a warriors' sword or in this case banner? In other mmo's the ranged slot for priests and mages is used to put in Totems. These boost stats and add other effects.
What is defined as taxation and ...here it comes… What is to be expected from the class?
This is a different game then any other. If one would keep an open mind, this might not be seen as something extra..Rather more as, yeah...that's typical for a warrior in Pantheon Rise of the Fallen. No objections, it's just common..
See what I'm aiming at? We're quite fixed in how we think and what our expectations are when it comes to what defines a class. Pantheon is creating something new here. So let's join them down that path, I'ld say.

The banner ability is what makes the warrior stands out as a class and makes it quite unique as a warrior ability compared to other mmo's. So why not elevate or highlight this uniqueness?
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
I would prefer collecting most resources from another player than a vendor, I see it as an excellent opportunity for player interaction. I would enjoy friending someone with the note of arrow supplier.

Possibly those kind of always necessary resources could serve as a foundation for the crafting economy? Players will always need those resources, so they can serve the foundation for something.
Well that would be my preferred choice, to find more ways to stimulate player interaction. And to allow for as many reasons as possible to interact with different players. If you think about it, that would make your player experience a lot different then that of a paladin. You as a player, because you chose this warrior class, CAN choose to interact with other players to get the items that boost up your class and playstyle. A paladin might not need to, and perhaps that player has other reasons to contact players to boost their class.
It's a way to differentiate playstyles, subtle but excisting.

Another way to approach this; The warrior has chosen his playstyle and he chose to focus is all-round stats around hate increase. So he's boosting up his Constitution and optimizes his Resilience....aka a raid tank? And therefore, his preferred banner used in combat is Challenger's Banner. (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/warrior/)
Now, because he's aiming to maximize the effect, he's willing to obtain items that boost that effect. Such could be player crafted Banners of the Challenger. So he purchases a stash and keeps it permanently in his inventory. The off-tank warrior might prefer the Shieldman's Banner or the Rallying Banner.
See what I mean?


Like I said earlier, since it's an ability. The warrior might be able to "magically summon" banners in any scenario. But if he has them stacked in his inventory, they might boost the stats or effects.
An npc vendor, is an option...like in other mmo's, these could sell banners of lesser quality. If you want top nodge, then you'll have to contact crafters. This again is no different then what is already out there in other mmo's.

Seeing the banners have different effects, it might just be a stack of 'poles and flags' that the warrior can have in his inventory. So he doesn't have to stuff his bags with SIX different kind of banners.
Still, this could allow for special recipes and unique drops.. For example a raidboss might drop a small amount of epic Banners of Onslaught.
One could compare that to the poison example of scouts. Special recipes or possible a quest reward, etc.
 
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Okay, I now understand better what you are talking about.

Would these banners be expendable? Would they be cheap and in high quantity, or expensive and reusable? Now that I am thinking about it, purchasing an inexhaustible quiver of arrows could make sense, though it may restrict other systems.
 

Nephele

Administrator
Staff member
So the implementation of this idea needs to be really carefully done. If the crafted banners (or arrows, or whatever) provide a substantial benefit, players *will* come to view them as required. If they don't, then players will generally ignore them. That said, I don't think it's a bad idea to create class-specific consumables as long as every class within a given role has one. The reason it needs to be every class is that if you have a situation where, for example, rangers "need" to make or buy arrows, but monks don't "need" to make or buy anything, players will feel like they have to craft if they want to play a ranger.

Off the top of my head, what I think I would do for consumables is give each class two different types of consumables that are made by two different crafting professions. When you take all 12 (14) classes into consideration, each crafting profession (not counting provisioner or alchemist) should have a relatively equivalent number of consumables that they make, to help keep demand relatively balanced. Provisioner and Alchemist are special cases because food/drink and potions really should be usable by everyone regardless of class.

You could also have similar classes use the same consumables, for example scribes might create scrolls that can be used by both wizards and enchanters, whereas stonemasons might create elemental foci that are used by both summoners and druids.

Again though even if you balance things out so that players have meaningful choices and don't feel locked into one crafting profession or another based on their adventuring class, you still need to make these things easy enough to go without that people don't feel like they are forced to craft in order to be effective. So, a better solution might be to not do any class-specific consumables at all, and instead, just insure that crafters can make a wide variety of different things that might be useful to anyone.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
So the implementation of this idea needs to be really carefully done. If the crafted banners (or arrows, or whatever) provide a substantial benefit, players *will* come to view them as required. If they don't, then players will generally ignore them. That said, I don't think it's a bad idea to create class-specific consumables as long as every class within a given role has one. The reason it needs to be every class is that if you have a situation where, for example, rangers "need" to make or buy arrows, but monks don't "need" to make or buy anything, players will feel like they have to craft if they want to play a ranger.
Alright, that does sound like a familiar reply from other players on other mmo' forums. So yeah, I've seen that people feel that it should be equalized like that.
What we know so far of Pantheon and class specific craft and class required crafts;

All classes: food/drink, possibly potions, (ranged ammo?, but what about spellcasters?)
Rogue: posions

It still good be the case that posions will be used by all classes, although I find that somewhat odd.
So far, the use of posions has been cheered upon, instead of complained about. (for most parts)

What if, instead of limiting the banners in ranged slot to warriors, there would be an item for all fighters to put in their ranged slot. (Don't stumble over the choice of terminlogy, please. )
Ranged ammo:
Scouts = arrows/totem
Priests= tablets/totem
Mages= runes/scrolls/totem
Fighters= banners/flag/emblems/sigils/totem

So, now every archytype has a specific item to put in their ranged slot.
Produced by different crafting classes (not mentioning the subcomponents required from other class crafters).
They have their own feel to it, uniqueness to it.
But, an overall ranged item is also available. Totems or Tokens can be used as ranged slot ammo, by all classes, if they choose to.

Well it's just a thought really. I just might be losing the plot here.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Okay, I now understand better what you are talking about.

Would these banners be expendable? Would they be cheap and in high quantity, or expensive and reusable? Now that I am thinking about it, purchasing an inexhaustible quiver of arrows could make sense, though it may restrict other systems.
It can go either way, items with low stats can be rather cheap and as you scale up so does the price.
A good suggestion there about reusable. But then again, how would one 'charge' it back to full?
Another option would be to make it Best in Slot. With each expansion, one would have to find the best item for that slot. Depending on your playstyle, that could still differ to some extent. Thus providing a need for crafters.
 
Now I am considering the banners and various ammunition to be necessary to use the skill at all.

There's a situation in WoW with a few consumable temporary buff items that the majority of the player base don't touch. Some guilds require their members to use them, though the only experience I have had with those consumables is that my guild or temporary group will shame me unless I have them. The only incentive I had to procure the consumables was to not be shamed.

Though, maybe that experience would be different if I felt more connected/positively about those groups I was a part of. And, making those items required may not change anything.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Now I am considering the banners and various ammunition to be necessary to use the skill at all.

There's a situation in WoW with a few consumable temporary buff items that the majority of the player base don't touch. Some guilds require their members to use them.
Consider it this way, the casual player might just rotate the banner ability and be fine with that.
Some players might have chosen a specific playstyle. So there is no real necessity for it, but it ALLOWS players to differentiate their playstyles and actually positively impact that style with the use of those player made/style specific banners.
When I play my ranger, I'm just happy shooting arrows at stuff and bringing them down purely based on my raw stats dps and abilities. I don't bother my poisons. Why? Well with my ranger I'm not persuaded to push out that extra bit dps by using poisons. And that's fine. I manage as a casual ranger playstyle. Sure, I can do better, does that make me a bad ranger? For some people it might, but for others I just might be just a fun fellow to group with. With my druid, bard or rogue, I'm totally not that casual and aim to perfection. See what I mean? With a player community, it's not all black and white, but you can only provide the option for different kinds of grey.

Should it be used by all players? Not really. Will it be beneficial for those that do? Yes, if their playstyle is oriented for it. They have their stats and other gear organized and chosen to fit that extra boost. They might not be using this same set up for each fight, but that's ok. We already know that, there will be gear swaps between fights in Pantheon. (not every minute, but different dungeons might require different gear) ...and with that perhaps different poisons, arrows, enchantments, runed armor or banners?

If you're aiming to raid or to engage in challenging content, the use of any kind of item will need to be considered. That is the case with or without those banners. But if you're casual player, like most player..then just might be less of a concern to you. And certainly nothing to be ashamed about. Heck, you're paying for it, you choose what you want to do with it.
 
I hadn't considering the use of banners as a way to differentiate your play style. That's probably important for the sake of players feeling like their character is unique. Maybe not as much uniqueness among players of the same class, but more when grouping with other classes. You'd feel more like an ranger among a warrior and dire lord if you were busy fletching your own arrows.
 
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