Salvaging

Barin999

Journeyman
This technique of recovering materials has been mentioned a lot in various threads.
Somehow not on this forum. What are you thoughts about the following questions?

Who is able to salvage? Why and why not?
My preference would be: if you're a crafter of any kind you can salvage. If you're adventurer only, you can not.
Salvaging should be tradeskill level based. This way you don't see a 100 paladin and lvl 1 blacksmith just to so he's able to salvage things while farming/looting things he doesn't need on the spot. So you can get to lvl 10 salvaging if you've reached lvl 10 blacksmith. So you can be lvl 10 blacksmith, able to reach level 10 salvaging if you salvaged enough/skilled up enough and you'll reach it. But after that you'll need to raise tradeskill level again in order to advance further in salvaging.

Should all items be salvagable?
Common goods and gear, yes, if you've got the skill for it. Questupdates? No. I hated not being able to update quests just because I got rid of it too soon. The dev's could solve it by popping an npc who sells questupdates, but that just doesn't feel the same now does it.

What comes out of something salvaged?
From a frozen chestmail comes: frozen essence and chestmail? This would seem the easiest way to do it.
Or iron cluster, reactant and others? If you that while adventuring or crafting , your bags might fill up very fast. Too fast perhaps? Or does that mean people would have to save up till they are at the bank or available inventory space, to spam their salvaging keys on the saved up items/gear? That last bit sounds a bit like a drag to keep doing that as, for me, it would loose some of it's meaning.

Who can use the salvaged items?
If a blacksmith salvages an item, would he get returns that only fit his trade? (That does make sense somehow, as he wouldn't know the first thing about alchemist items, so how would he be able to salvage them?)
Or does salvaging render items for all trades in general? So he might up with items he can't use as a blacksmith. (And possibly just becomes trash if he's not bothered to hold on to them to trade them with an alchemist for example, or if he's not in the neighbourhood of a broker).
Or are the items coming from salvaging an item common goods, so they just might be as usefull to a adventurer as it would be the same for a crafter? Perhaps salvaged items could be turned in and replaced/switched for usefull things for that person.
Example: a paladin salvages an item and gets unusable item X..if he returns it to his class guide, he'll be able to get a holy blessing (or something paladinrelated, or pots of Paladin's Wrath) for it in return. This he could use while in combat. So Salvaging gets a whole other use aside from crafting.
Same goes for traders.

Can you salvage ones? Or multiple times?
If I salvage a chestmail; does that give me metal rings, leather straps, metal collar etc?
And should I be able to salvage those again? So I get metal bars, worked leather?
One step further would give me iron clusters, coal, skin and oil.
Is this how it should work? Or just directly into the fundamental ingredients to make a chestmail? Or never into the fundamentals but just up to sumcomponents?

What do you say?
 
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Chimerical

Novice
I think a specialist should salvage those items they work with, an blacksmith would salvage iron, copper, cobalt whatever. A master armorer/weapon-smith would harvest more material than an apprentice, i.e. you have replace your bronze sword with a steel sword. Rather than try and sell your bronze sword you decide the raw materials are of more value to you. You melt down your bronze sword. You are a master and reclaim 60 ounces of copper, an apprentice would reclaim 40 ounces, a novice 20...

Now you were fortunate enough to come across a bejeweled bronze sword, possessing an enchanted ruby that gives it extra stats. If you're in a hurry maybe you just melt it down and lose the ruby, take your copper and get right to crafting your next item using salvaged copper. Then again maybe you see value in that ruby, knowing it must be at least perfect in quality to hold an enchantment. You can't reclaim that ruby, it's not your specialty, it's a jewelers. Furthermore, it's an enchanted ruby, the spell enchantment must be broken (and lost) to reclaim the perfect ruby. You find a scribe that can break the enchantment (as well as provide a spell providing a new enchantment should you so choose), or you lay it on your deity's altar to break the enchantment, and then take your sword to a jeweler who carefully extracts the gem. Or maybe you decide you just want to encrust your new sword with ruby dust. You skip breaking the enchantment and take it right to the jeweler who is able to remove the ruby, with great difficulty due to the enchantment. The ruby is damaged, no matter you grind it to dust and use it for your next project...

I would think it would be best for base materials to be in units easily divided in percentages to allow for variation in skill of those using the material. Ore in pounds and ounces for copper, iron, whatever; board feet for lumber, etc. That way when a novice vs an adept vs an apprentice, salvages material you can break up units into range such as novice salvages 10-20% copper master 60-70% copper. Base units are then refined into usable materials such as copper ingots...

As far as salvaging sub-components above base materials it would have to be case by case. I would leave that to removing enhancements/additions, runes, gems, straps, which might leave a breastplate for new enhancements or a riding crop for a new strap (and better attributes), but you shouldn't be able to recover a steel ingot, it should degrade to it's constituents such as iron and carbon. Now chain mail it a bit different, perhaps you recover ring dependent on your skill level. A master leather-worker might salvage a perfect pelt, an apprentice might have it degrade to a "fine" pelt.

Also the salvaging skill should increase the more you salvage. Any crafter can salvage but only experienced crafters can excel in salvaging in their area of specialization. In this way perhaps a seasoned salvager would give a modifying bonus to his crafting skill to salvage a bit more material, or increase the chance of salvaging that perfect pelt...

Nothing in concrete. Just a few thoughts to possibly stir debate.

Now I'm off to work on my real world angel food cake skills. I'm definitely a novice, hope all goes well.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
That makes for an interesting read there, @Chimerical .
When you try to implement diversity based on salvaging skill, how would you see that working out, based on the resources it took to create the item? (or figuratively if it's a kill only item)
If a steel sword required 2 steel ingots..how does a novice salvage 20% of that and a master 70%?
If crafting relies on resource units (2 steel ingots) more than quantity (50 steel ingots), how would that work out? Perhaps it could have a minimum-average-maximum salvaging result? As long as the item itself required at least 3 of the same resources.

With a salvager being advanced as he is, would that player be able to salvage a Rare pelt, even though the recipe would not require one to make it? Would you allow for rare components being salvaged, based on the supremacy of that salvager?

There is a lot of dept in your ruby example. I'ld gladly see it applied in such a manner in game.
You did touch a good point there about difficult to salvage.
Are you suggesting that items could have different layers on them? So that you can peal off/salvage one thing at a time. And do you suggest it's advicable to salvage this way, because you'ld have a risk trying to salvage something before other layers are removed from it?
It's an entertaining idea, that a woodworker would be able to salvage from a shield and would experience difficulty if the ruby is not removed from it before. This would however, make it the most challenging for woodworkers, blacksmith and stonemasons..but not so much for a scribe or alchemist. Since it's most likely that they'ld have the most outer layer to salvage.

There could be a design, where you'ld see which layer goes where. So perhaps the alchemist can only salvage if the woodworker has salvaged before him. For example: the wood is salvaged and a the woodworker is left with a vial of something chemical. (as a by product after salvaging). This vial can be brought to the alchemist to salvage whatever is in the bottle. So in this scenario Salvaging itself could result in end by products. Food for thought.

I'ld also like to see specialization in salvaging. However, if I'm not mistaking, salvaging is a seperate skill, aside from crafting. So a player who just want to adventure and salvage, is able to do just that. Specialization could be difficult to apply here. Unless the specialization itself is not based on craftingclass, but rather on the kind of item that can be salvaged. So one might choose to become expert salvager of boots, swords, bottles, food, scrolls, goblets, tablets. If salvaging stands alone, this could work out in similar fashion indeed.
 

Nephele

Administrator
Staff member
I'ld also like to see specialization in salvaging. However, if I'm not mistaking, salvaging is a seperate skill, aside from crafting. So a player who just want to adventure and salvage, is able to do just that.
You're thinking of scavenging, I think. It was confirmed (or at least heavily implied) in one of the newsletters that salvaging is something that crafters will do, and it will probably require some kind of specialized tool to do it. Scavenging on the other hand is the thing where you can find stuff out in the world.

What we don't know right now is whether salvaging will be its own sort of skill within the crafting sphere that you have to work up or whether it will just draw on existing crafting skills in some way. We also don't know right now whether salvaging will be specific to items within your crafting profession, or whether you'll be able to salvage anything that's salvageable.
 

Chimerical

Novice
In regards to salvaging steel ingots, you wouldn't, in my example. You would salvage the base materials that make up the ingots, such as iron and carbon (and then have to recreate ingots from salvaged, or new material). Say sword required 2 steel ingots and each ingot required 100 ounces of iron ore. Salvaging would then, in this case, be roughly 40 ounces of iron ore for a novice up to 120 ounces recovered for a master, plus some carbon of course. If game is created that you must use units such as ingots, and recover same, I suppose I would just use modifiers to adjust for skill: novice has 20% chance to salvage materials, master has 60% chance...

You should never be able to salvage at a greater quality than was initially there. Therefore you can't salvage a rare component where one never existed. Rather higher skills have a greater chance of salvaging existing rare components. A novice jeweler can attempt to remove that perfect ruby, but will likely damage it in the attempt, thereby leaving you with a "fine ruby" or maybe simply "a ruby". A master jeweler would have a good chance at salvaging the "perfect ruby" as is, perfect.

I would have the various specializations be best at salvaging their respective materials. Blacksmiths ore, woodworkers wood... Base classifications should be able to salvage base materials equally well. Outfitters can salvage jute from an item, but specialists would be better at higher level materials in their field. A pristine jerkin requiring 2 fine pelts, stitched together with perfect skill would require a master leather-worker to retrieve those fine pelts.

I don't think a master level salvager, in any profession, should be able to salvage all components from a high level item from different specializations. A master blacksmith, using the prior example, should need to find another master in the appropriate specialization, in this case a jeweler. This creates need for other crafters. Maybe you pay them. Maybe you barter, I'll remove this ruby if you break down ore for me at a later time... Again you should be able to salvage without others, just with lesser results. Say that ruby isn't perfect, it's just a common ruby. You still salvage the iron and carbon, you just end up with a damaged ruby, but you don't care in this example, time is more valuable than the ruby. Of course there will be plenty of items that don't require additional help to break down. A fine steel sword only required a blacksmith using his skill and an anvil to create the sword. He salvages the sword without any concerns about contacting others. This would be the case with many low level items.

Now should a specialization called Salvager be created that person would salvage all items regardless of what specialty created it. 5 different specialists needed to make a high level armor, specialized Salvager doesn't care, he has the tools to salvage all materials. Should they decide to create that as a specialty I would hope the various specializations would be the ones to created special tools/potions/spells, whatever to allow the Salvager to do his work.
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
You're thinking of scavenging, I think. It was confirmed (or at least heavily implied) in one of the newsletters that salvaging is something that crafters will do, and it will probably require some kind of specialized tool to do it. Scavenging on the other hand is the thing where you can find stuff out in the world.
Thanks for setting that straight. It's for the best to keep things clear as possible to minimize confusion based on the limited information we have so far.
Thumbs up, Nephele.
 
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