Gathering ideas on what mini-game / puzzles should look and feel like.

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
As I have mentioned in other posts I would like to see crafting an item to be as time consuming as soloing one monster. Likewise I would like to see the number of items required to craft per crafting level-up to be about the same as the number of even level monsters you would need to kill in order to level up a combat class of the same level. This slow rate crafting process will consume possibly 2 orders of magnitude or fewer stacks of raw material to level than recent MMOs have used in leveling crafting. This shifts the time spent from harvesting and resource grinding to actually crafting.

Nephele and I have talked about this a little before with the general consensus that the crafting process needs to be fun to do otherwise the long wait time is just boring torture. What we need are ideas on how to make the crafting "game" system fun so that the active crafting process is enjoyable and gives you a rewarding feeling when you complete an item.

In my mind I envision each crafting class will have say 10 different mini games / crafting encounters. Different recipes will be a combination of these encounters in series. The first step to crafting an item would be the "design phase" where you combine the different item creation options that you are trying to achieve and it will build a "plans" object with a bill of materials you will need to complete the object. The crafting encounters must be faced in order and may require you to switch tools and possibly crafting stations between stages. Additionally I would like to see the ability to rechallenge the most recent stage to gain a better result without consuming raw materials but with a total maximum number of retries per item. Each stage would reward some amount of crafting experience.

What I would like to see if we can do as a group is come up with the 10 best thematic mini games for each base crafting class then outline what the mechanics of each mini game would be.

Blacksmithing:
1) Smelting: Adding/Subtracting Objects, Heating, Skimming
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Outfitting:
1)
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8)
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10)

Alchemy:
1)
2)
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8)
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10)

Woodworking:
1)
2)
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8)
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10)

Provisioning:
1)
2)
3)
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8)
9)
10)

Stonecutter:
1)
2)
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8)
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10)

Scribe:
1)
2)
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8)
9)
10)

I am going to leave the above list blank to start with until I hear more from everyone and we can fill out the list. Think as simple and basic of a process that each class might use and we can combine similar ones into a crafting encounter.

For example:
Blacksmith: Smelting - At a high temperature furnace place your crucible in the heating chamber. Fill your crucible with the mixture of ore you want to smelt. Add purifiers as needed to reach the required purity. Heat the chamber to the appropriate smelting temperature for your crucible and alloy. Skim off the slag removed by the purifiers. Add more purifiers and reheat and skim as needed until the required purity has been reached. Pour your liquid alloy into the appropriate casting die: large ingot, multiple small ingots, rod stock, bar stock, plate stock.

Smelting would have the following sub actions: Adding Objects to crafting station, heating, skimming and pouring. Realistically pouring is just negative adding objects and adding objects is a UI function or the most universal mini game action. We are left with heating and skimming being the only active actions and most of the smithing processes will require a heating sub process. That leaves us with skimming being the only unique minigame process in smelting and arguably Provisioners and Alchemists may use it as well but with a different visual.

I look forward to other ideas you guys have and ill add them to the list till we have a full list for each.

Trasak
 

Barin999

Journeyman
I will get back to this in more detail when I have more time...

Is the following in your lines of thinking?; Blacksmith; 1) make a design on paper of a mold 2) make a solid ingot, 3) make a mold from that ingot using various materials, 3) melt down resources you want to use into your weapon 4) poor combination into that mold, 5) make it cooler, 6) reheat the shape ones out of the mold, 7) reshape it accordingly, 7) finetune the handle and other parts of that certain weapon, 8) fixate all the parts into one, 9) sharpen the weapon, 10) polish the weapon

I could be off base, but I want to be sure I'm thinking in the correct lines before in start thinking about 50 mechanics of crafting :)

Do reply please
 

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
@Barin999 the list of processes I had in mind for smithing are as follows: Smelting, Casting, Heat treatment, Forging, Quenching, Grinding (large material loss), Polishing (surface loss only), Assembling, coating and folding.

Smelting would have: Heating and Skimming/purifying
Casting would have: Mold forming, pouring, quenching
Heat treatment would have: heating and quenching
Forging would have: heating, placing, hammering in a cycle until the correct shape was made
Grinding would have: placing, guiding
Polishing would have: placing, buffing
Assembling would have: placing, heating, welding, riveting, wrapping
Coating would have: placing and heating
Folding would have: Heating, placing, hammering
Planning: Create the design you are making from lists of options

So in total the sub minigames would be: Heating, Skimming, Molding, Pouring, quenching (placing in liquid), placing (on anvil - which area will matter), hammering (force/hammer weight and location), guiding (on the grinding wheel), buffing, welding, riveting, wire wrapping, designing

Thats 12 different interactive sub-mini games that are called by the 10 different processes. In theory the different materials you use for both the working object and the tools will change how to "win" the sub-mini games with the best results.

Creating a sword would have the following steps:

1 Design: Pick blade type, pick blade material, pick blade appearance, pick hilt type, pick hilt material, pick hilt appearance, Create plan

2 Create Blade:
a: Smelt ore to create alloy for blade​
b: cast either sword blank or bar stock (bar stock will take longer but will yield a better blade for some materials, others can only be cast​
c: If cast skip 2c - Forging: hammer bar stock into the appropriate length/width/thickness possibly starting with several folding processes​
d: Grinding-bulk: Grind away large amounts of metal with rough grinding wheel to create rough shape from cast or forged blades​
e: Heat treat - anneal: heat to target temperature to soften but not melt (core and surface the same temp), allow to cool slowly​
f: Heat treat - short time at high temperature (surface temp high, core temp still below softening), quench possibly after coating​
g: Grinding-fine: carefully grind edges to a high sharpness​
h: Polishing: Remove working roughness to achieve desired appearance ( process will be dictated by blade appearance in design)​
3 Create Hilt
a: Smelt Ore​
b: Cast Hilt​
c: Grinding - Clean casting​
d: Polishing: Remove working roughness to achieve desired appearance ( process will be dictated by hilt appearance in design)​
4 Assembling
a: Weld/rivet hilt casting to finished blade​
b: Wrap hilt with wire or leather​
5 Enchanting
a: stuff I haven't thought of yet but could also be tied all the way back into the smelting process​

Smile at a job well done and one completed sword. Each sub process can be retried to get a better result but you have a limited number of total re-attempts before it needs resmelted.
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
@Barin999 the list of processes I had in mind for smithing are as follows: Smelting, Casting, Heat treatment, Forging, Quenching, Grinding (large material loss), Polishing (surface loss only), Assembling, coating and folding.

Smelting would have: Heating and Skimming/purifying
Casting would have: Mold forming, pouring, quenching
Heat treatment would have: heating and quenching
Forging would have: heating, placing, hammering in a cycle until the correct shape was made
Grinding would have: placing, guiding
Polishing would have: placing, buffing
Assembling would have: placing, heating, welding, riveting, wrapping
Coating would have: placing and heating
Folding would have: Heating, placing, hammering
Planning: Create the design you are making from lists of options

So in total the sub minigames would be: Heating, Skimming, Molding, Pouring, quenching (placing in liquid), placing (on anvil - which area will matter), hammering (force/hammer weight and location), guiding (on the grinding wheel), buffing, welding, riveting, wire wrapping, designing

Thats 12 different interactive sub-mini games that are called by the 10 different processes. In theory the different materials you use for both the working object and the tools will change how to "win" the sub-mini games with the best results.
Alright, I see what you're getting at. It is quite detailed, I must say. Which is fine and understandable knowing your background. So I'll try and come up with ideas for the craftmechanics.
I do believe it really will give an artisan feel to the creating-/craftingprocess and indeed players could be proud.
It will still be a balancing act to make it fun and pleasant to watch or have a sense of interaction to it.
For the biggest fans of crafting in a game, it will be a hoot. Would it be as much fun for the average player who likes to spent a smaller portion of their time crafting but mainly fighting/exploring...I don't know about that. Fighting a mob might take longer in Pantheon, but in that case the player will have that direct sense of danger or adrenaline and goal to outsmart/defeat the foe they are up against.
When it comes to crafting, it will be a lot more difficult to get those kind of players engaged in crafting as well, if it's too slow or too complex.
That said, I'm game for your suggestion and you can expect a proper reply from me with some ideas. English might not be my native language, so bare with me on terminology. So yeah, nice lay out of blacksmithing. I like it a lot and I hope I can provide constructive ideas for you.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
The classes might be different but the core mechanic of the minigame should be the same. I don't think the dev's will design a different mechanic for each of the crafting classes. It would just have a different sheet depending on the class.
Here's a thought I've been working on.

It comes down to this; you have to interact with your cursor to continue the craft and througout that process you need to counter crafting events with your keyboard. I use my cursor with my right hand, so I'll be moving my right hand in the way the mechanic wants me to and with my left I'll need to hit keys when events pop up to counter them.

Scribe minigame:
The goal: correctly scribe/fill the proposed symbols on a scroll.

Short explanation: The outlinings of a prewritten text is displayed and the player needs to fill that in by filling his quill with ink and countering events along the way.

Step by step explanation:
1) A player stands before a scribing desk and left clicks the desk to interact with it.
2) The recipe window opens up, showing every scribe recipe known to that player.
3) The player chooses a recipe and left clicks to assign to that specific recipe.
4) The other recipes are gone and on the chosen one remains, showing the required resources to craft the item.
5) Players starts by pressing "Craft".

7) A page is shown with outlines of symbols. To the right of that page is a pot of black ink. In the top left corner above the page is an empty feather/quill displayed. Adjacent to that is a figure of a Circle displaying 0/100%. On the left side of the page are a number of empty squares displayed. Crafting events will show themselves and as they are countered correctly, the squares will fill up with the symbol of the countered event.
8) The player RIGHT-clicks the pot of ink and thereby fills up his quill.
9) The player hovers above the outlined symbols and LEFT-clicks to commence writing. As he's filling up the symbols the circle above, starts to fill up and the process is calibrated as X/100%. Now here's THE TRICK; staying on one spot for too long will cause a inkstain. This will trigger the circle showing red -X/100%. Moving too fast and it will cause smears on the symbol. This will trigger the circle showing red -X/100%. Each detraction will affect the maximum end result. (makeshift, mediocre, high quality, pristine)
10) As the player has right clicked the pot of ink, the symbol of the quill starting off being full of ink, gradually empties out/depicts an empty quill. When it's empty, the player moves his cursor to refill his quill by 'dipping'/rightclicking it again on the pot of ink (matching the colour of ink by the outline of the symbol he's working on). If the player tries to write with an empty quill, the symbol of the quill pulsates in red.
11) Final product would be, filled symbols on a page, with or without smears or inkstains. Rendering the player an item of certain quality. (This so far is without the occuring crafting events, which I'll talk about now).

12) On the left of the page with outlined symbols are a number of vertically aligned empty squares and a bigger square above it (4 to start with?). From the moment the crafting process has commenced, the player will have certain preset (hot-)keys available for him to click. These can be pressed by the players free hand. Seeing that the cursor will already require one hand.
13) As the crafting continues an event (for example: gust of wind, clutter in the quill, hardening of the ink, rupture of the parchment) will occur that must be countered to prevent, the Circle displayed next to the quill above the page to decrease in quality. So if the player does nothing when an event is shown the circle will show red -X/100%. If a player tries to counter the event with the wrong key/symbol, the circle will show red -X/100%.
14)The first event occurs and the player counters correctly by pressing the same symbol using his preset hotkeys. The event shown by the symbol in the big square will turn green and dissappear. The first smaller square below will now display the symbol of that event. (with a possible increase/boost of the circle showing green + X/100%?)
15) A 2nd event occurs. The player counters it wrongfully. This by either reacting too late and the event transpiring, or by pressing the wrong key. The symbol in the big square turns red. The small square 2nd in line will have a red cross displayed. And the circle will show red -X/100%. (with possible hitpoint injury on player himself?)

16) Final view from left to right; A big empty square, with 4 squares below either filled with symbols or red crosses. The quill above the page with a darkened colour (showing it's no longer in use). A circle showing a certain % of completion. (resulting in makeshift, mediocre, high quality or pristine quality item). And a page with filled symbols on it. The symbols on the page should not be of any actual language but have that mystical/Terminus feel about them. The player can look at the depicted events and 'read' them as a short story of what happend throughout the craftingprocess. (Perhaps there is something to learn from the order of occured events...)

The entire process can either be influenced by putting a timer on it or by moving the symbols on the page upwards by a certain speed (similar to tetris).

This is the basic recipe. The simple version as it were. You can make it more complex. Here are several examples how you can manage that:
1) put a timer on it. 2) add more colours to the symbols and more pots of ink to choose from 3) like an actual puzzle break up the symbol to be filled in, so that different colours need to be used in one symbol. 4) put a magical component in them; A symbol has a red outline but also a purple haze to it, so you need to combine refilling your quill with red ink and also by dipping into some magical pool as well. 5) smaller symbols 6) more events to counter 7) faster reoccuring events.
All this combined would already present a good challenge I'ld think.

I can probably come up with similar things for other classes. The mechanic will be the same. cursor moving around and hotkeys being pushed.

I feel that this would be very engaging. You would really have a sense of writing. You would have to be focusing and requires concentration. Time spent can depend on the complexity or tier of recipe. Basic recipe and thus basic text should take 2 minutes at least. Similar to mobs, the tougher they are the longer it takes, the bigger/more unique/rare the reward.
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
@Trasak
Outfitting mechanics: cutting, drawing, alternating, seaming, hemming, stitching, dying, sewing, fitting, designing, repair

*) Here the outfitters need to craft a design first, work the materials to correspond to the design requirements (dye and sumcomponents, cut out and stich them all together. They then should do a fitting using a mannequin and adjust what needs adjusting. As the first draft would not be the finished product but a rough version of what it's going to be. After the alteration, the outfitters can finetune the clothing by adding those last bits and pieces. As a final stage they can add in those magic components.
It could be possible to design the mechanics for the outfitters so that they can have different quality renders in the different stages. This could influence the quality of the end result and it might allow the outfitter to just single out certain stages to try and use them on a next attempt to the recipe. Or they could retry the stages during the process of crafting itself as long as they haven't proceeded to combine the different stages together.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Alchemist minigame:
There are so many things that can be used to make it fun and engaging for an alchemist, it is difficult to choose from.
They can: grind things, cook things, mix/stir things, knead components together, burn, bring to a boil, sift, manually stir, steam, shake/rotate,...

An alchemist starts of by crafting vials using a glasshaping technique. He can then turn to a woodworker for appropriate holders to place the vials in. He can make a recipe himself or work together with a scribe for it. He can make fires of various colours or ask a blacksmith for assistance. He can make subcomponents or ask a stonemason/outfitter/provisioner for assistance.
Now what makes the minigame of the alchemist unique..is the actual process of the botteling and creative process. Alternating resources and combining components into something different or of different substance. (solid, liquid, gas, slime).
How this could look like? When he's got all his components, he starts his actual final recipe. Now what appears is a maze of tubes, heatsources, valves, steamslots, filters etc.
Imagine a straight horizontal tube with it's content going from left to right.

At the top of the screen is a series of icons such as a valve, flame, drop of liquid, gassy cloud, smashing hammer. And to the right is an image displaying % of the finished product.

First up it has a single burner underneath it somewhere along the tube and above it a bulb with at it's bottom a single valve. The bulb contains a liquid. This is the basic recipe, so the player clicks create and the basic liquid starts to flow from left to right through the tube. At a certain stage the drop of liquid starts to flash. Now it's up to the player to click the valve linked the bulb with the main pipeline, to allow liquid from within the bulb to mix into the main flow. BUT! Closing the valve too soon or too late will give an error message (image of drop of liquid on the top, flashes red). So the player needs to time so that sufficient mixing has taken place before closing that valve. The mixed liquid continues to flow and is ready to be poored into vials. End basic recipe.

Things get more complicated as more tubes, bulbs, valves, burners and whatnot are added to the circuit. Just image after a while an alchemist opening up a recipe; 1 starter tube that detaches into three tubes, each with various bulbs with different coloured liquid, a gassmixture with steamvent and various burners requiring attention. All need to be turned, fired up, mixed and infused. This makes up a nice puzzle. And you'll really get a sense of engagement and creation. Using different techniques could be worked into the puzzle as well.

Again this could be complicated or mixed in with my previous design about crafting events during the craftingprocess (cursor for the puzzle and keyboard for the events), or by adding a timer (in se the timing of everything is already a timed function) and not to forget you can add magical components. The up side here is that you really can play with the amount of time it takes to finish a product. You can design recipes or the mechanic in such a way that the liquids and what have you, run at a certain pace or require time to be heated to the appropriate temperature or gas needs to bottle up. It's a very natural take/way to prolong the crafting process without making it a mindless timesink. Difficult and complex things just take more time to create, that's a fact.

I don't know about you folks, but I see that as a fun trade.
 

Autherial

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
Nice idea, whatever they decide to do I hope they strike a good balance between making it interesting and fun to do while not being repetitive and boring after a while.
 

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
@Barin999 Short reply but I like the ideas and will combine them into the top section as a first edit. Just like in writing a novel sometimes its best to get a lot down on paper then you can begin to edit and reshape what you have written. In my experience getting the first stage put together is sometimes the hardest part, after that things tend to flow.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Outfitter (my take on it)

Baseline: puzzle solving by adding pieces into an ‘empty puzzle’ and interacting with them to proceed the chain of production.

View of the outfitter crafting game; At the top of the screen dark area with to its right a circle X/100%. Underneath a black square space. To the right is square for tools and below that are two vertical areas for basic products and secondary. Basic products will be used at first but might be needed later on the line as well. With the basic products you start the recipe and activate the different tools. Certain chains in the puzzle will be able to finish...revealing a secondary product in the frame to the right. This will pop up if a mini-line is finished. These secondary components can be added to the next steps of the line.

Basic technique/tools recipes: For example wool/roots need to be woven into a thread using a hand turned spinning wheel. On top of the screen are darkened areas and a circle next to is, displaying X/100%. Below that again the darkened images/space. To the right is a horizontal square with the image of a spinning wheel. Below that are resources required for this recipe displayed in the left column with an empty right column adjacent to that.

The outfitter needs to drag the spinning wheel to the left side and place it on the correct darkened spot. (Seeing that this is a basic recipe, it will be the only available spot.) As the player releases the wheel onto the correct position, on top of the screen the image of a spinning wheel appears on those darkened areas discussed above. Perhaps a golden lining around the tool can signal that they have placed the correct tool at the correct position? (NOTE: This next step can be skipped if too complicated to implement in the game mechanic.) The player now picks up the resources and places them on/next to the spinning wheel. With the wheel activated, the wheel icon on top of the screen starts to pulsate. Signalling the player that this tool needs to be used. The wheel starts spinning as the player clicks on the wheel itself (NOT on the ICON on top). The faster the player clicks the faster the tool will work. BUT: moving too slow and the wheel will falter, moving too fast and the tool will break. As the tool (in this case a wheel) is being turned, the circle on top starts to show its progression x/100%. The crafter will know when he’s clicked enough to finish the product as the icon on top displaying the technique that is being used will flash green.

In this basic recipe, the crafter just needs to keep clicking the wheel to finish his product. The crafter will have different techniques (aka icons) and thus basic recipes. These will allow the outfitter to get a feeling for how delicate (Read: rate to click or frequency to click) they need to be when they are working with the tools. Tools can be: needle and thread, spinning wheel, scissors, dye, pins, lucets, awls and reels, (mannequins or parts thereof?)….

Any recipe beyond the basics can be a combination of various basics recipes. This will complicate things, as the outfitter will need to choose and use the correct tools and resources at the correct time/production line. For example they can place a tool wrongfully, the tool might work, but he will have made a wrong subcomponent or cut off a fabric too soon. Perhaps a golden lining around the tool can signal that they have placed the correct tool at the correct position? Possibly, several techniques need to be used simultaneously? This last suggestion might make it too intense or complex for players?? NOTE: It is not possible to place all tools at the start of the production, the player needs to solve the puzzle step by step. At first they might struggle but they’ll learn what works and what not. And they will become skilled in it, so that they can work out different recipes using the same order of using the tools.

With this scenario, the outfitter might end up with a lot of unneeded/wrong subcomponents, but they can break those down again or use them on other recipes. But of course the goal is make an item without being wrong and preventing the creation of incorrect components.

How to make it more complex? Add in more tools, colours, choice of fabrics or fibres, magic component. I wouldn’t put a timer on this trade. This trade feels more like it needs to have stages of creation. Adding a timer to it, doesn’t make much sense. It will already require a fair amount of time to finish off all the stages of that production line. As recipes develop and levels rise… the amount of stages can increase. So instead of just using the scissors ones, they can be needed at different stages. Or after the creation of fabric, it needs to be adjusted again so new fabric needs to be made to patch up or incorporate other types of fabric.

This again can be combined with the crafting events I discussed earlier. This will make the experience again more intense and engaging. Because the main game here is pretty predictable, adding these events into them, will put in that adrenaline-/risk- factor.

This trade has a different feel to it, because as a tailor, you’ll want to feel the sense of completion when you have made your fibres, cut your patches of fabric, sewn your hood, adjusted your sleeves or hemmed a piece of clothing. The quality can be calculated similarly to how other trades have their items of different quality. So when the outfitter has used components of certain quality, the end product will never exceed the quality of the lowest quality of subcomponents used in the process.
 

Khaleesi

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
I have a concept of woodworking that would involve a whole shop's worth of tools (more hand-held than mechanical, but maybe the gnomes can help speed up the process with some really good equipment).

each of these tools may have to be manufactured / reconditioned / upgraded by other craftsmen (for the metal components, or otherwise)

as far as screen layout - a 'tabs' set of categories could be utilized after clicking into the woodworking bench.
clicking a tab would change the view of the table (or shop) below.

events would trigger during the process and have to be countered (depending on the problem) to be able to succeed.

Rough hune
first, you'd have to process raw wood or salvaged wood.
it would require rough cuts of logs, planing, honing the wood.

Now, if you don't care about the quality of your table, or just need a simple shield to protect yourself from whatever-that-goblin-just-picked-up, you can move on to assembly of the rough cut wood.
Just get a few nails, maybe a metal band from your friendly local smith, and a leather strap from your outfitter guildie.
A relatively quick combine on the assembly table (tab) and you can have that basic equipment- a table that will hold up your gruel while you choke it down, and a shield that will at least keep goblin poo off of your face, if you are fast enough.
Plus you've got some handy bark that you may be able to sell to an enterprising scribe.

Drying and storage
Next, as a you travel far and wide, fining oak forests, pine forests, and come across exotic woods and burls - bring them home and use the rough working tab to create more rough cut boards.
Learn how to dry wood from the local wood working guild and buy some bricks from the local mason, and you can set up (a new tab), a kiln and you will be able to process your wood into higher quality, stronger, boards that will last longer both in storage and as crafted projects.
But be careful, as dangerous as rough honing the wood was, now you are working with fire and might burn yourself or ruin the wood if the fire flares up. The wood might come out warped if the fire is uneven.
countering these events will be important to improving your skill.
of course, a very skilled word worker would be very familiar with this equipment and process.
And as skill increases, these tasks become more routine and have much less chance of failure. you foresee the problems even before they come up - but special woods might take more care to get right.

Fine shaping/ detailing
Once the wood is rough cut, dried, and stored, you can go back to the local wood working guild and learn more and more about how to shape the wood into something useful.
skill will improve as you put in the time to learn these techniques from a teacher and as you practice the techniques
you'll have to learn the hand saw, the plane, the drill, the gnomish router, the lathe, the gnomish CNC router, files, saws, and so on.
You can learn how to set up guides and jigs for very precise and complicated jointery.

Some of this equipment may have to be quested. you may have to travel long distances to find these tools and learn how to use them.

Gluing / clamping / assembly
You can get glue from your local alchemist. Use presses and clamps to join your wood.
careful not to pinch a finger or over tighten the clamps.

Finishing
Eventually, you'll move past the design and combine phases to finishing.
chemists can use sand and your scrap to combine into various grain levels of sand paper for you.
you'll also need special finishing products, wax, shellac, drying oil, lacquer, varnish, or paint.
The instructors (including other, more skilled, tradeskillsmen-and-women) can teach you how to enamel and anneal the surface into something hardened, beautiful, and durable.

Mastery
The ability to create real master level equipment and furnishings will take not grinding out thousands of basic tables, but instead will require learning how to counter problems and events as they come up and searching far and wide for the equipment, materials, and skills of distant and distinct craftsmen.
As you learn, the process for something simple becomes easier and faster, but the unfamiliar processes and trickier woods may still present you with challenges (events) that must be appropriately overcome, otherwise the project will take longer and may come out at lower quality.

The ability to work with magical elements will be both dangerous and potentially rewarding.
Events will come up more often and basic skills that you thought you knew well will become a challenge again.


Anybody can make a wooden sword from a stick - but who among you can make a great shield that can protect against both fire arrows and mystical javelins made of pure lightning and terror? Or a ranger's bow that can pool and harness each of the forces of natural energy into it's projectiles.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
I have a concept of woodworking that would involve a whole shop's worth of tools (more hand-held than mechanical, but maybe the gnomes can help speed up the process with some really good equipment).
as far as screen layout - a 'tabs' set of categories could be utilized after clicking into the woodworking bench.
clicking a tab would change the view of the table (or shop) below.

Rough hune
Now, if you don't care about the quality of your table, or just need a simple shield to protect yourself from whatever-that-goblin-just-picked-up, you can move on to assembly of the rough cut wood.

Drying and storage
Learn how to dry wood from the local wood working guild and buy some bricks from the local mason, and you can set up (a new tab), a kiln and you will be able to process your wood into higher quality, stronger, boards that will last longer both in storage and as crafted projects.

Fine shaping/ detailing
skill will improve as you put in the time to learn these techniques from a teacher and as you practice the techniques
you'll have to learn the hand saw, the plane, the drill, the gnomish router, the lathe, the gnomish CNC router, files, saws, and so on.
Some of this equipment may have to be quested. you may have to travel long distances to find these tools and learn how to use them.

Gluing / clamping / assembly
You can get glue from your local alchemist. Use presses and clamps to join your wood.
careful not to pinch a finger or over tighten the clamps.

Finishing
Eventually, you'll move past the design and combine phases to finishing.
chemists can use sand and your scrap to combine into various grain levels of sand paper for you.
you'll also need special finishing products, wax, shellac, drying oil, lacquer, varnish, or paint.
I enjoyed reading this. It makes up a nice storyline for crafters. I'm lacking the mechanical background though (looks and feels of the minigame). Still good ideas to be found here.
I agree on different stages of quality of an item. The way you approach is nice and it builds up towards being that skilled crafter able to deliver that pristine item.

Obviously, I agree with the requirement of crafting tools and the reliance on different trades for subcomponents.

The tab system could work, but I fear could make it less fun/engaging to play around with. I would see it more all in one screen. Think of it as a transformation of the item and depending on your skills. The player clicks on create: and the base resource shows up on the left side of the screen. The crafter progresses through the craftingmechanic and the resources shift from left to right and Transform into the end product of that stage. Each time it transforms, the item moves up to the left of the screen and you can continue onward with tools/mechanic to the next stage of your product. The base resource will transform to the max of your abilities.

I also like the idea of having to learn more after finishing one stage of an item. A way of unlocking things. The danger here is that it becomes a boring run back and forth with the npc/teacher. But you seemed to suggest a way to counter that, by creating questphase in that teaching moment. Where the crafter needs to learn how to use items near that teacher. It makes sense, could be fun and gives more depth to the class. It also gives you something to do at that teacher, and it's not just a click-through dialog.
This teaching moment could be very simple: learning to work with tools by having to rotate them, smithing hammers, chosing between different saws, vials etc, learning how to maintain fires up to a certain heat, fibres to a certain strength, boiling water to a certain degree. As content is added on, you would only have to alternate slightly to make these learning moments usefull again. This could be done by requiring more precise movement of tools, faster movement or strokes of the hammer... So yeah, I like that idea of learning.

In a way it could lead up to be the creation of the master crafter minigame. As each learning moment could unlock another step in the crafting mini-game. Where you would start by simply working wood, the next learning moment you need to shape wood, fine shape and such. So each time you get passed a teaching moment, your minigame grows. But the teaching moments retain their seperate phases, so it's just the crafting minigame itself that expands. This due to skills being learned. It could be a natural way to make the crafting process longer.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Mastery
The ability to create real master level equipment and furnishings will take not grinding out thousands of basic tables, but instead will require learning how to counter problems and events as they come up and searching far and wide for the equipment, materials, and skills of distant and distinct craftsmen.
As you learn, the process for something simple becomes easier and faster, but the unfamiliar processes and trickier woods may still present you with challenges (events) that must be appropriately overcome, otherwise the project will take longer and may come out at lower quality..
I like the idea here of the level of master crafter being a requirement to be able to use different techniques then crafters below that skill. It could be a nice brainstorm thread as well.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
I've been thinking about this mechanic.
It should be a skill, it should require training and it should be possible to increase the difficulty.
I came across a mechanic, which I found very entertaining which answers all those criteria.

In the links below you'll see that this mechanic is used in Lock-picking. However, I do believe it is possible to use similar design in a different settings, to be used in Salvaging for example or in the crafting mini-game.
Important note here: there is a risk of failure, you don't see it in the first video. In the videos failure means breaking your lock-picks. So in our setting this could be: failure to salvage or not fully salvage. Or in case of crafting, materials breaking or failure to produce anything and items being consumed.
Please have a look and just imagine it in the context of this current threadsubject.

This one is from Elder Scrolls Skyrim.
It's a very basic setting. It requires both keyboard and cursor action simultaniously. It requires you to use your sense and has a fail-risk based on your character skill level and your actual player skills.

This is from Elder Scrolls Online.
This one is similar but the graphical image is different. However again, this could be implemented in a Pantheon-cover.
It requires you to use your sense and has a fail-risk based on your character skill level and your actual player skills.
Imagine it as pieces of a puzzle that need to be aligned, or crafting materials that need to be altered in a certain fashion. This could be by chosing your materials or (like in the video) playing with the sensitivity of that mechanic (a loom, hammer-anvil, wooden board-figure saw, ink and paper,..etc.)

I'm not stating, that this lockpicking should be put into Pantheon, I'm suggesting that similar design could work as a mechanic for crafting or salvaging.
 
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Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
Going to try and condense all the ideas into the top post over the weekend.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Well it took me a long while but I found it.
A post from someone when I was playing Everquest Landmark a couple of years back.
I found it very stimulating.

Please have a look. Especially with at 2.23 and at 4.20
It's a great mind teaser. And again it could be up to the dev's to pick up what they choose from it.


Personal note: I would try to aim for a crafting screen where you still see your character making those artisanal motions.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Woodworking:

OPTION A

  1. Sawing the logs into boards
  2. Refining the boards (read: choosing different woodworking materials)
  3. Shaping into smaller units
  4. Fitting the units
  5. Resizing the units
  6. Refining the units (read: choosing different woodworking materials)
  7. Crafting the joints (read: or other materials such as arrow heads)
  8. Adding the joints
  9. Assembling the item
  10. Finishing the item

By Refining I mean, you choose a different tool and manipulate the material in a different manner than actually sawing wood. This could be adding a chemical ingredient, fire, etc.
I would go as far as to coating or using paint, it seems too detailed and too many variables.
But a general dye could be added later on in game, to give your wooden materials a colour/glow/haze.

I’m not talking about adorning or imbuing either. Again that seems an additional step so that’s aside the primary woodworking mini-game.

For me it does feel like the woodworking is working longer on one material. So there are less options to divide the minigame into different steps. You can manipulate a saw, screw holes into them, smoothen them out, assemble the different pieces. So if Pantheon is working with subcomponents this makes sense, but it would collapse if there are few or no subcomponents.

For the woodworker and possible other craft classes. It might be an idea to have the graphical stages of their build on view while they are crafting. For example: a progress bar is moving along, but at the same time the item itself is taking shape in a windowscreen somewhere around that progression bar. Examples: a wooden log=> several boards => cilinder sticks => Arrow stick => fully made Arrow with arrowhead and feathers.
This way if they faulter during crafting, it will show how far they've gone and they'll retreive the subcomponents up to the latest stage. When they would recommence, they could potentially start on that latest stage if they put in the subcomponents. If they don't, they recipe will start from the beginning and will require the basic compounds.
This progression could be linked with my suggestion on crafting events and abilities used during crafting.

OPTION B

Sawing the components into the correct size and shaving those subcomponents could be a few of those important steps for a woodworker in the minigame. This aside of the use of chemicals, colouring or attaching one piece to the other. Metal plating and fabrics could also be something for a woodworker.
So when I try to simplify this the following could occur:
A woodworker gets several pieces prior to starting: raw materials: lumber, possible subcomponents made by other crafters (if not the case, again raw materials to build those themselves).
a) A sawing mechanic could be at play, where the player needs to click to saw or move their cursor back and forth. This for X duration or with a Y frequency. Going too fast, too far or too slow will faulter the mechanic.
b) The boards are cut, now they could shave them into proportion. With similar mechanic as seen in a).
c) Subcomponents are build or added. This could be done to by adding both primary product and subcomponents onto each other (visually) and 'working the material'. Again using the mechanic from a). The woodworker needs to hit the nails, push in the fabric, fixate the covering material. When hitting too fast or too much, the material might break or get dented.
d) With primary and subcomponents combined now, the crafter can start on the finishing touches; shaving, dying, or other. The result of this could be 3 different products: pristine, medium quality (if they messed up step d) ), broken/bad quality if several step prior to d) went wrong. Visually, there is no size difference, it's just stats. The bad quality might offer no stats at all. Since it's a failure.
The addition of adding crafting events and how to counter them is still possible in this design.

This seems to me a simpler style of crafting then the one I posted above it. Less complex and perhaps more appealing to the general public.
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
Provisioner and brewer
What I have so far:
Both can have three stages of quality:
1) weak product= medium duration, lowest stats
2) general product= long duration, medium stats
3) pristine product= short duration, max stats.
The idea behind this is, at first they might try and sell the 1st version. As they get more skilled, they'll easely move beyond the 1st stage and will be able to choose between stage 2 or 3. For general travel, exploration or crafting one might prefer the 2nd stage products. Those in need for max stats, such as players in dungeons or at dangerous places..might choose to consume products of the 3th stage. So one does not exclude the other. What you also see, is that you won't have best in slot consumables (aka max stats with max duration). I think that's an important twist, this will help maintain the need for other products rather than just Best in Slot products and discarding the rest.

In general these stages could occur in the crafter's minigame like so;
They start off brewing or baking..as they leave the kettle on the fire or they choose for a longer yeasting period...their product will become stronger and stronger. With a failcondition in the end, as things get burned and you lose your product and ingredients. The key here is, that it is not clearly marked where the different stages are on the completion bar. So that the crafter will have to learn and experience how far they can push the cooking/boiling process to achieve certain stats or get a burned supper. Of course after a while, they will know exactly how far they can go, and at what time they can press which button. But that is the overall learning process with everything in game.

First off, I again hint towards my suggested minigame with events to be countered during the crafting process and ability buttons to be pushed during crafting.

Secondly: With cooking you can differ with so many things. One could start with a template sandwich and as the crafters tries out other ingredients they discover alternative! (not new) recipes with alternative! stats similar to their base recipe of a sandwich. So ingame it could be viewed as if the cooking as different stages, where the chef has to place ingredients and transform them either by cooking, baking, grilling etc. (the technique offered by the game depends on the base recipe).
How to make this more complex?: add more ingredients in the different stages; start off with a sandwich with butter and cheese, next would be transform it by using more toppings, next would be sauces and finally to grill or not to grill..and after that the time grilled (like in my 3 stage-quality suggestion) will determine the end product.

Thirdly: Distillery or bottling. Again one could use a base template and alternate to get an alternative product. Here can again the choice or amount of ingredients added make a difference, also the heat or amount of fermentators. For those that are interested I'ld strongly suggest this side below. It can be used to brainstorm for recipes and complexities for drinks and also how the actual game could look like ingame (graphic-wise).
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/ales-vs-lagers
It's a good read and well worth it if you want to understand what it could entail to brew something in a game. Of course it needs to be simplified a bit.

With both lines of consumable products, the quality of the end product can differ relating to how good the stages in between have been countered/completed. If my vegetables aren't cooked long enough, my ovencasserole will not be optimal. Makes sense, no?

What we need to keep in mind is that recipes and resources mainly are region based. So one could only alternate a certain template recipe to the limits of the resources found within that region. If you understand what I'm saying here.

Anyway, this would feel like a nice crafting experience, where I'm at the rudder and I could feel engaged and stressed during my crafting experience here. So that sounds like fun to me.
 
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Barin999

Journeyman
Here's yet another example how the use of a cursor and keyboard can be intergrated in the mini-game crafting.
It is out-dated of course. But I'm sure you'll get the general idea out of it.

freerealms1000 crafting lron and silver bar

This is oversimplified, but with some up to date thinking, one could see how it certain aspects could work in Terminus.
This could be partly for a stonemason's minigame and for smiths.
 

Barin999

Journeyman
Stonecutter

Carving, shaping and handling the materials are key things for this trade.
This is the case for both tradeskills.

Glassconstructions see from sec 27 in the video below
The Art Institute of Chicago
LaunchPad: Ancient Glassmaking—The Roman Mold-Blown Technique

The basic set up:
A pattern and several molds are visible in the top section of the screen. Next to the patterns is a %'s bar and a Circle showing quality of the product. It lights up as the product is being produced. Each substep will require a full circle, if the crafter wants to end up with a pristine product. Any failure during the substeps will degrade the product to medium quality or worse to a broken product.
On the right side of the screen is an oven, body of water. To the left are tools (and possibly subcomponents) and other materials required for the endproduct.
The MOVEMENT KEYS are used to move the primary component in the preferred direction. The cursor is used to manipulate the oven, the pick up different materials, tools and to finalize the product's design..fitting to the pattern/mold.

This crafting technique, lends itself really well to the design where forges need to have a consistent temperature. And shaping of the product happens throughout the heatingprocess. The heat management, can by itself be one step of this mini-game. Clicking= turning up the heat or cooling it down. With the Left and Right keys on the keyboard, the player could be placing the product in and out of the fire. If the player hovers over the fire with their cursor, they could left click to heat up and rightclick to cool down. When the player moves their cursor away from the fire, the cursor could allow them to pick up other materials to be added/melted to the primary product, which is displayed in the center of the screen. By combining the use of the Left and Right key TOGETHER with the movement of the cursor, the player might create products this way. Failing to follow the mold/pattern, could result it a broken item or if it's diversion is to a certain degree, it could still rend a product of medium quality.

Cutting items out of clay and other bigger raw materials can be within the possibilities.
So this could require sawing, shizzling, dyeing and drawing on the materials.

  1. Primary components need to be sized down to fit the end-productsize. This could be through similar sawing mechanic, as suggested in option B of the woodworker.
  2. Shaping could again be done by using the movement keys and the cursor. The first for moving the boulders/stones/gems and the latter (the cursor) to move the tool itself. Aside of tool placement, the crafter will need to click to impact the material. Here the main failure could be; clicking the tool over and over on the same spot. This would eventually break your material. How many times you need to click before moving could be shown by the progression bar, or quality meter. A visual effect could also solve this, so that it's no longer possible to click on that specific location and one needs to move the primary product further.
  3. Painting or polishing the item. This would be another stage with a mechanic based on the same principal; moving the product with your keys and moving the tool or other with the cursor. And left click would be using the tool.

Adding magical components, adornments or fluff items could be a different thing aside of making the actual end product.
Because stonecutter (jeweler and sculptor) are such diverse trades, there is a lot of potential difference to add into the flavour of the minigame. Yet, the core mechanic would be the same.
 
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