Crafters Roundtable: Raiding and Crafting

Cromulent

Administrator
Staff member
In this roundtable, I would like to discuss an issue that has been making me think recently.

One of the problems with crafting is that it usually takes a specific type of person to spend a significant amount of time to do it. That means guilds typically only have a few crafters yet when it comes to raiding and doing group runs in dungeons nearly everyone turns out.

What I would like to see is the idea that raids and high-end dungeons would drop more crafting ingredients so that raiders would have to rely on crafters to make some of the best gear in the game. That way there would be a synergy between raiders and crafters. The raiders would still end up with some of the best equipment in the game, but they would have to work with the crafters in the guild to achieve that.

I think that making players have to interact with people more is the core concept of Pantheon and by dropping crafting ingredients in raids and high-end dungeons, players will be required to work together to achieve their goals. It would also give crafters a reason to be at the top of their game so that they can make this gear from the raid dropped ingredients as only the best crafters should be able to create that gear.

I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts on this issue.
 

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
I feel like we are still waiting on the final word on how crafting will fit into the itemization of Pantheon, especially in reference to BiS. If I remember correctly they have said that crafting will likely have a small handful of BiS items spread across all the classes and builds. We haven’t heard what percentage of gear in use they intend to be crafted vs adventured even when not considering BiS.

I personally hope that 60-80% of gear used while leveling is most likely crafted and 100% of end game gear is either crafted completely or personalized by an grandmaster crafter. From a Dungeon Master perspective I hate having nonrealistic loot dropping from monsters so it is my hope that unless the item is dropped by a medium sized humanoid race the items will either need to be resized or fashioned into useable equipment.

Now how I see this fitting into raids is a combination of team crafting, material harvesting, and recipe research.

The first step to utilizing the equipment types and special materials available in raid area is reverse engineering or if you are lucky deciphering records for recipes. This equates to crafters with high enough perception salvaging items made by their craft in order to get raw materials needed for crafting items from that area and having a chance to master the technics needed to recreate those subcomponents unique to that area. Secondly there could be a lore based method of assembling some of the information from texts and records that need to be collected and deciphered.

In the process of reverse engineering the items a portion of the raw materials used to create the item are collected. The chance to salvage the higher value materials will increase as you master the creation process for that item. Many items will actually have both a Primary and one or more of secondary crafting professions required to create it due to subcomponents and so multiple professions can benefit from salvaging it and what they could receive at mastery will be different.

For the salvaging to function as a part of raiding and not something to just go farm and take to the market there needs to be some reason to heavily encourage the salvaging to be done on site as the items are dropped. One way would be if VR adopted realistic mass and volume values for items such that only one or two of the salvage items could be carried out but mastery of a subcomponent took closer to 100 salvages and the true rare material only having 1 in 20 or more chance to be salvaged when mastered.

This could make the trash drops almost as important as the rare spawn drops and would provide a great deal of horizontal progression in each raid area as multiple craftsmen are learning from the same items in order to produce the actually usable items from a raid area. Now boss mobs will have chances to drop the good raw materials, special items that have very valuable and rare crafting methods and additional items that can be directly fashioned into usable equipment. There are also opportunities for materials from one raid zone being required to craft items from a different raid zone.

Now the team crafting comes in the form of needing craft the items within the raid zone with some form of consumable that must be collected within the zone at the time of crafting. The subcomponents for these items will have a time limit they must be used by before they go poof so all the professions needed to create an item will need to be in the raid and craft their portion of the item before the raid ends.

It could be even more interesting if each raid area was really only good for a few classes and so to truly complete the raid content at that level you would need to do this process for a minimum of 4 raid areas. Tie in that you can make the items without optional ingredients from other raid areas but each of the 3 classes that can use the items made in a specific raid area each want optional materials from different other raid areas for the BiS version for their class. This way everyone has some incentive to help with the other three raids that their items are not made from.

This structure could be applied to many of the group zones with a slightly less stringent need to have all the crafting skills present at the time of crafting the final item.

This is a bit of a wall of text and until Ceythos is able to share more with us its just brainstorming. I imagine the team would be flustered if they realized I was advocating 4 full raid areas that are woven together through lore and itemization at launch.

Sorry for the wall of text and hopefully this is the type of concept you wanted to talk about,
Trasak
 

Nephele

Administrator
Staff member
Walls of text are totally cool!

So, I'm with Crom in terms of high-end content dropping crafting components that are used to make correspondingly high-end items. I think there's probably a balance between that and finished item loot drops, but (from an adventuring perspective) it should be just as big a deal when that dragon scale drops, because you can take it and get it made into a variety of different and useful things - or sell it for good money.

I think where things break down is when the balance isn't... balanced. For example when there's too much finished loot dropping and so the crafted items become unneeded by the people doing the content. Or, when the majority of the loot is stuff for crafting and finished items are super rare.

Something else that I think is important for Pantheon is that there should be gathering that happens in high-end content areas. Meaning, in that dragon's cave maybe there's a rare vein of ore. Want the ore? Find a way to deal with the dragon. This gets crafters out into the world a bit more. You could take this a step further and even have special crafting stations in dungeons, that allow crafters to make unique items, but the crafter has to get through the dungeon in order to do it.
 

Trasak

Apprentice
Staff member
Staff Writer
Tying both resource collecting and special crafting stations into adventure zones is a great idea and one real way to limit flooding the market with high quality goods. Imagine if there was a special anvil and forge you really needed to use for some recipe. It is deep in an enemy stronghold that you must clear to then using the station causes new monsters to rush in and attack. The rest of the party needs to be on guard to protect the crafter/s as interrupting the process will cause it to fail and be ruined.
This assumes a non-instantaneous interactive crafting process rather than just an instant combine button.

What do you guys feel about the idea of breaking recipes into basic and subcomponent recipes? An example would be that a one handed slashing sword has a basic recipe useable very early and as you level your craft you learn to make blades in different styles and material. You are always making a one handed slashing sword but there is a big difference between a low quality iron blade and a curved mithril blade as there is also a difference between a simple hilt and a basket hilt.
You learn how to make, collect the resources for and forge the curved mithril blade in an adventure zone not in the open world.

Trasak
 
To go out and harvest in a dungeon is a great idea indeed. But what about those players who just want to craft? Feels a bit sad that they have to rely so heavily on combative players.
The loot from an end mob could go various ways: common useable gear and items, ingredients and recipes found on him or in his vault, unusable items that require salvaging and readdorning by crafters, or indeed even a 'physical' piece of the mob itself like a tooth, eye or scale that can be used during crafting.
Creating a content where you need to craft while adventuring might seem tedious to some players. And it might just be quicker to go in and out with your loot and craft outside when people are not in group. But one could certainly include the excistance of unique crafting areas/stations that offer a chance to construct a rare item. Hopefully that's far and wide in between expansions. Or you might lose a lot of value in your loottables and recipes.
 
While i Love to be in on Raids people who raid should not be the only people who have great gear. If you want a Great Player Based Economy then Crafters have to be able to be able to reach a level that will allow the people who raid to wear crafted armor and survive. If crafters are not willing to go out and find/kill for materials then create a system where they can put in buy orders and adventures can sell the stuff they collect to fill those orders instead of the first NPC merchant they run into when they hit town.
 

Cromulent

Administrator
Staff member
While i Love to be in on Raids people who raid should not be the only people who have great gear. If you want a Great Player Based Economy then Crafters have to be able to be able to reach a level that will allow the people who raid to wear crafted armor and survive. If crafters are not willing to go out and find/kill for materials then create a system where they can put in buy orders and adventures can sell the stuff they collect to fill those orders instead of the first NPC merchant they run into when they hit town.
It would indeed be good to have an in-depth player economy. I'm not saying only raiders should have great gear, but if there was some form of group-based crafting or maybe even more than a group, then that should give better rewards than something that only required a single player to achieve. In fact, with group-based crafting, you could have a synergy between different crafters. For instance, a leatherworker working with a blacksmith to create a full set of armour along with the leather under clothes.
 
crafting should always be group based.....a Smith doesn't know how to cut jewels...he/she can fit them but not cut. they is also a need to enchant a weapon or armor. alchemists need pottery for potions. carpenters need smiths to work metal pieces for furniture. so the way i see it if VR is trying to get back to social aspect of MMOs then crafting should have groups every bit as much as adventurers.
 
1) I like the idea of crafting the items needed to craft as it adds breadth and depth to the economy through increased interdependence.
2) I like the idea of tool degradation, it'll be a small gold/item sink, thereby helping to reduce inflation.
3) I like the idea of recipes/mats dropped from raids.
4) I DO NOT like the idea of needing to go to a specific location to be able to craft an item. It's a novelty that'll wear off fast and become drudgery. Please don't make us hike for an upgrade.
5) I like the idea of upgrading our own workbenches for different effects. The upgrades will be also crafted. Perhaps an iron anvil with iron upgrades will be replaced by a steel anvil with steel upgrades.
 
Implementing special or rare materials in raids would be a spectacular idea. This will push guilds that are more PVP oriented to do more PVE content and be more well rounded. This will also make the PVE oriented players push for other players to have high-level gathering skills or even have the gatherers paid to run raid instances with them. If the PvE players do not take the opportunity to gather what is available then they will lose out on revenue. I would even suggest making the value of the gatherable materials within the raid more expensive than the drops or at least keeping it equal. It would also create more demand in the economy and local marketplace by keeping prices competitive and crafters a means of income. Another thing I would like to see is for gathering bosses to yield different materials that are relevant to all crafts and not just one specifically. I would also suggest that they have raid specific crafting stations that can craft special recipes.
 
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